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smithsguild
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Ok here is La'Petite Morts 2 infamy on the value of using IO's (Invention Origin enhancements) instead of SO's (Single Origin enhancements).
#1 - IO's have the perk of offering set bonuses for 2 or more enhancements of same set being slotted in same power. Handy things like adding +percentage to hp, end, resists, etc...
#2 - IO's are low maintainence and never grey out (loose effectiveness) when you outlvl them. TO's / DO's / SO's all suffer from planned obsolescence... Fall behind on enhancement upkeep and your combat effectiveness suffers. IO's can always gain value from upgrading but never zero out like the others.
#3 - pound for pound a complete set of IO's compete % wise with slotting an equivalent lvl SO's for ACC, DAM, end. red, etc...
These are my arguments in favor of slotting IO's instead of comparable SO's.
Anyone want to play devil's advocate and explain why my thoughts might not prove the Winner and champion of the enhancement world should be the IO's?
My research was gleaned mostly via Paragonwiki's excellent coverage of IO sets
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Io_sets#Overview
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
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| 11/06/07 10:00 |
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midnight guard
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Thanks for the info, Captain Obvious! (j/k bud ;) )
But if you wanted to get Credibility for this as a Guide, you should submit it as a Guide, in the Guides section, unless people keep replying to this, it wont stay on the front page for long.
Good luck on your hunt for Credibility o/
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| 11/06/07 10:21 |
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smithsguild
Posts: 62
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Actually didnt want to submit it as a guide, not at least without bouncing it around for Rebuttal and intense scrutiny of the membership, lol only been at it 2 months don't feel I'm qualified to give build advice just yet. 8-)
But I did think it was worthy of some discussion, maybe save some other fledgling street-trash the lost infamy I suffered until I dug in and did the research because the facts weren't served up all nice and tidy.
What can I say... (I'm lazy by nature)
Heck at this point I *STILL* could be seriously wrong and operating under a false assumption...Just figuring that -IF- I were the general discussion forum would be the place to weather the storm of constructive criticsm, before reciting the gospel according to La'Petite Mort.
-IF- the consensus is my points are valid I may then submit as a guide with any other pearls of wisdom (or corrections) offered by the membership. However I do thank you for the headsup on where it should go should it survive it's infancy.
"What more could a soul ask than each night to die a little death in their true loves arms..."
Global @Mr.Paul Bunyon
La'Petite Mort *50* necro/dark MM -Liberty server
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| 11/06/07 20:41 |
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Mzzkc
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I tend to use SOs until I'm fully slotted. Only then do I start the tweaking process. But, in all honesty, you're better off using SOs until you reach a certain level because you simply won't have enough slots or monies to get the most out of your IOs.
Really, the cheapest option in the long run is to just work with SOs until training IOs become just as efficient. At the lower to mid-range level you're going to be paying more for less if you go with IOs, so SOs are generally the way to go despite their drawback (which quite frankly can be easily circumvented by buying them cheap on the BM every once in awhile).
Don't get me wrong, your points are valid, but the more frugal players or the people who play in SG mode constantly might want to stick with SOs instead of the fancy set IOs if only because they tend to do more for less.
To be honest I was thinking about just saying "You're wrong because I said so. (Mzzkc, 117)", but you type so nicely I just couldn't do it. The only thing I would suggest is using italics for emphasis just because it is much more subtle, at least twice as powerful, and filled with awesomesauce [Strings of Caps in normal sentences are not filled with Awesomesauce unless there is irony involved. (Mzzkc, 42)].
So, to sum it all up: Set IOs are not as efficient as SOs in regards to monies, effectiveness, and time (but I didn't get into that one). After a certain level training IOs become more efficient in all regards listed above. And I am an arse.
Cheers!
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
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| 11/06/07 21:36 |
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Phedre_D
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Originally I was not so excited about the whole IO thing. I was afraid it would mean that you are forced into dealing with the blackmarket or be gimped. So my brute stubbornly leveled up on SO's only. I didn't even bother to dump salvage or recipes at the black market. And that actually goes just fine. At level 49 now there is nothing I can't handle.
But recently my level 16 dominator stepped out of retirement, and I decided to play with the recipes, salvage and what not. And for her it is perfect. I make sure I sell off all salvage and recipes I don't care about and convert all useful stuff into IO's. She is now level 20 and almost fully slotted with lvl 20 IO's, and I still have money left to get myself some SO's when she reaches 22. The IO's make the journey from 15 to 22 a lot easier. And since I have already a lot of IO's I am not completely desparate for cash for a full set of SO's when I reach 22, since their gain is not that gigantic compared to crappy lvl 20 DO's.
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| 11/07/07 06:40 |
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Villainess Vines
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well I use both depending on my level IO's are great but in the lower levels (under 30) I find that slotting DO's or SO's to be more beneficial to my toons I sell all my recipes and salvage and get a good bank going so when I transition into IO's around level 30 I have plenty of infamy to buy the recipes that I dont get from drops.
Thanks to Death Fetish for this cool "siggy"
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| 11/07/07 07:53 |
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smithsguild
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| RE: IO\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s vs SO\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ |
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Actually Mzzkc, I have been one of those that play continiously in SG/VG mode, and have found that my finances (and my stress lvl) have both benefitted from using IO's.Like I said this is my 2 infamy YMMV. It's all personal preference and playstyle I suppose...
Here is the justification as I see it. On my alt's (as mort didn't have the knowledge at the time) I run TO's upto 10th lvl enhancement then switch to lvl 15 IO's when character can slot them at 12th. IO's at this point offer comparable stats to DO's but will never suffer their "planned obsolescence". This is repeated at lvl 22ish when they again become comparable bonus wise to the now available SO's. However there isn't the urgency after this to "Chase the upgrade Rainbow" that slotting SO's produces. If my finaces are tight at 28 my enhancement won't give out.
edited here to include comparison link
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/index.php/Inve...ncement_Scaling
IO's are the "little engines that could" of the enhancement world. If I were neglectful of character maintainence, My lvl 20 IO enhancements would still produce a %bonus ( however insignificant) at lvl 50. Whereas a lvl 40 SO would have been of zero benefit for 7 lvls. IE now that they are providing a lasting benefit I can slot the powers I use most often with Current IO's and let the others slide as needed until I am flush with Infamy.
I have ran in SG mode constantly since lvl 7 and enhancement, recipe, and salvage sales added to my mission revenue have allowed me to fully slot all IO sets to within 3 lvl +/- my current lvl except for some of my obsolete/seldom used power pool powers and brawl. Btw are you the same person or an acquaintance of Jzzkc? If so please pass along my thank you for explaining in this guide: http://cityofvillains.gameamp.com/guide/vi...85.php!orderBy=
how occasional debt can be your infamys best friend... I have in the past been 20-30k infamy away from a desired purchase and the explanation helped me solve my cashflow problem quickly.
Other enhancements become useless unless upgraded at 18 & 23 for DO's and at 28, 33, 38, & 43 for SO's. Meaning that total refit is absolutely nessecary to maintain ANY usefulness in every single power slotted...
Net savings? I doubt it over the long haul and the stress of constant maintainence of enhancements took leveling for me personally and turned a "Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy" moment into oh crap, my enhancements just zeroed out and I shouldnt have blown my infamy on @#$$% shiney at the black market.
Btw thank you for the constructive criticsm of my writing style. I want my posts to intrigue the mind and please the eye... making them so full of "awesomesauce" they ooze their way into the hearts of villians everywhere LOL
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
"What more could a soul ask than each night to die a little death in their true loves arms..."
Global @Mr.Paul Bunyon
La'Petite Mort *50* necro/dark MM -Liberty server
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| 11/07/07 16:13 |
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BishopDon
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Am I the only one that really go with the IO sets for the Set Bonuses????
That's how I determine which set to collect, even at the lower levels. I sell everything that isn't nailed down and stock pile all my Infamy until I feel like making whatever to fill the gaps. However, by level 30 - 35, the generic IOs have surpassed the level 50++ SOs in value, so if that's your goal, you can stop there with slotting IOs. The sets are a little more tricky. They require some skill and planning to get the ones you need to be effective with.
But honestly, I do the sets based on the bonuses they provide. I use those to fill the gaps on my toons...If i need extra damage, i pick the sets that provide a damage boost, if i need Psi protection, i choose sets that provide Psi protection. To me, that's the real value of collecting the sets.
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| 11/08/07 21:39 |
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smithsguild
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| RE: IO\\\\\\\'s vs SO\\\\\\\'s |
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No, Don your not the only one... The set bonuses are icing on the cake all my arguments so far were merely to explain why I believe that IO's hold up to SO's pound for pound.
Believe me it doesnt hurt as a selling point that my current set bonuses include 5.63% additional hp, +16% regen, .9% added end, 3.75% smashing resist, 2.5% leth.resist, 1.5% recovery, 2% additional to all healing, 3.85% red. Immob, 4pts knockback resist, 20% added knockdown to my 1 combat power, all pets resist taunt/placate, all pets get 5% def bonus...(and quite possibly some movement bonuses i forgot to write down).
All of which I'm positive Enhance my combat effectiveness.
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
"What more could a soul ask than each night to die a little death in their true loves arms..."
Global @Mr.Paul Bunyon
La'Petite Mort *50* necro/dark MM -Liberty server
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| 11/09/07 08:20 |
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Mzzkc
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I wrote up a really nice piece explaining where I was coming from, but I had to leave and shut down the computer before I could finish it and being the perfectionist that I am couldn't post an unfinished work. So I guess I can try to summon it up in a sentence or two. The wording will be awkward and run-ons will be inevitable. . . . You'll live.
Summarization:
I'm talking from a PvP viewpoint where everything is planned out and my % has to be maxed out at every level past 20 so I am able to PvP effectively. Careful slotting and maintenance is key to perfecting any build and the slot-it-and-forget it mindset of IOs is counter-intuitive to what I want to be doing. There was a lot more too, but that the gist of it.
Edit:
| QUOTE | | I want my posts to intrigue the mind and please the eye... making them so full of "awesomesauce" they ooze their way into the hearts of villians everywhere LOL |
^.^
***THIS POST HAS BEEN EDITED***
How do you keep an idiot busy? (see bottom of sig)
Silence is golden. Duct tape is silver.
How do you keep an idiot busy? (see top of sig)
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| 11/09/07 20:38 |
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smithsguild
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Hehe understandable Mzzkc.
As for myself, I was speaking totally from a more casual PvE standpoint. Truely an apples and oranges comparrison.
But I'm glad you chimed in anyhow. Your semi-opposing veiwpoint made me dig a bit deeper to find Facts instead of feelings to backup my arguments.(And in the process I think make for the bare bones of a decent guide.)
Kudo's to all, not just to Mzzkc who put their 2 infamy in your input also inspired epithanies, opening my eyes to the variety of reasons and methods ppl use when slotting IO's all in all I rate this a good thread.
"What more could a soul ask than each night to die a little death in their true loves arms..."
Global @Mr.Paul Bunyon
La'Petite Mort *50* necro/dark MM -Liberty server
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| 11/10/07 06:20 |
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smithsguild
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ok, guide submitted. Thanks again all for the input.
"What more could a soul ask than each night to die a little death in their true loves arms..."
Global @Mr.Paul Bunyon
La'Petite Mort *50* necro/dark MM -Liberty server
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| 11/10/07 08:08 |
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Phedre_D
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Based on all the comments here I pulled another toon out of retirement. (Well, not just because of this thread, but also because I realized how much fun CoV still is, and how I have missed it.) And on this toon I followed VV's path and sold off all recipes and salvage. She worked her way up from 20 to 27 now. Thanks to some serious selling (I think I got 4 trade batches now) I have nearly a 1 million in infamy, and a full set of level 30 SO's.
I think both sticking to SO's and getting IO's asap are viable methods. I am still not sure what is best. I guess like so many things in COV is not always a matter of the bestest. It is just a matter what do you like, and have the most fun with. Oh, how I love this game.
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| 11/12/07 05:36 |
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dougnukem
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There really isn't a "best" way to do it. That's the beauty of IOs. Myself, I slot DOs at 15, mix and match DOs/IOs at 20, maybe some SOs at 25 and 30, and IO out at 35s. After that, I start thinking about sets that I might want.
I did this with my brute (currently 41), have about 16 mil inf, always in VG mode, and have some pretty nice sets started of Crushing Impact, Scir Derv, and Imp Armor to start with.
My point is that we all know you can do just fine with SOs, since we did it for so long, but IOs allow such a huge freedom of variations, that it really can change the game for you. :)
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| 11/14/07 11:24 |
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bigspeer
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I pretty much do what Doug does too, but I thought of it first, so he's really using my plan!
I built a stone/stone tank after i9, he's 28 right now and has almost 11 million because of salvage and recipe drops. He might have 4 SOs slotted atm, but that just because I haven't needed to update them yet.
From 10-17, I get basic IOs to tide me over. Then from 17-22 I'll upgrade my IOs to DO strength, then at 22 upward, get the better IOs again.
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| 11/16/07 11:06 |
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